PONTHIEU NOT PICTAVENSIS – A POSSIBLE CONTEXT FOR ILBERT DE LACY

A great historian once likened trying to identify people of the Conquest era to peering into a thick fog, where indistinguishable figures came in and out of view. The Norman chroniclers do not always offer reliable insights. William de Jumièges, writing ca. 1070, and his continuators, Orderic Vitalis and Robert de Torigny, writing ca. 1120-1140, were propagandists of a ruling establishment of elite families, each of which claimed descent from the Duchess Gunnora or her relatives. They treated tenure and lineage as equivalents when composing their accounts, so as to enhance the veracity of these claims, and promote the concept of a continuity of rule, which was the consequence of Divine Providence, and, thus, unchallengable.

Their accounts owe as much to approximation as they do to fact, and contain many mistakes.; one being the appelation given to Roger – the brother of Robert de Montgommery “de Bellême”, who m. Agnes, dau. of Guy Comte de Ponthieu (1) – “Rogerus comes Pictavensis“. This is a mistake, as a result of Guillaume de Jumièges confounding Ponthieu with Poitou, the latter being “provincia Pictaventis”. (2). Yet, this most simple of explanations is not often considered, with the words of William of Jumièges being treated as if they are a sacred text, and, the more they are repeated, the more they are fixed in the minds of “believers”. It is not considered that spellings of place names in the Conquest era (and beyond) had extensive variations, and, hence, extensive phonetic renditions, making transcription from the spoken word problematic. Instead of questioning the validity of references, that is, being academic, all sorts of explanations have been offered concerning this appelation, all of which can be readily dismissed.

The said Roger and Robert de MontGomery are claimed as sons of Roger de Montgomery, and Mabel, dau. of William de Bellême; and grandsons of “Roger, Seigneur de Montgommery, Vicomte de l’Hiémois”. (3). We are informed that, in 1092, Robert de Montgomery and his wife donated the church of Saint-Léonard de Bellême, founded by her father, to Marmoutier. (4). They were the parents of William “Talvas” de Ponthieu, who succeeded his father, between 1106-1110, as Comte de Ponthieu. Henry I King of England restored Comte Guillaume to his father’s lands in Normandy in Jun 1119. As “Gulielmus comes Pontivorum”, he donated, in 1127, property to the abbey of Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte for the souls of his predecessors, earl Roger and Mabel his wife. (5). William was the overlord of Ralph Boissel, recorded in Cart. de l’abbaye de Saint-Vincent du Mans; a translation from which is:

We want it to be known that when Radulfus Bossel and Willelmus the eldest son received the monastic habit, they gave to God and to these martyrs Vincent and Laurent whatever they had in the parish of St Lenogisili and the tithes they had in the parish of Scurcismate and de Macerii. All this Wivenna his wife and Richard and Herbert their sons and Paganus de Tyrone who was Wivenna’s father granted in alms. This was witnessed by: Domnus Odo the abbot, Robert the prior of Guirra, Odo de Fraterniacus who was then the prior of St. Lenogisili, Gervasius and Hugh the monks, et al. You must also know that William Marie, of whose feoffee is whatever Radulfus Boissel had, bequeathed to God the monks in the parish of S. Lenogisili that for the reparation of his soul and Ameline, his wife, and Robert, their son, and Cecilia, their daughter. We, the monks of St. Vincent, gave 20 solidi to William Marie and Ameline his wife 5 solidi for this concession. All this was confirmed before William, count of Pontivi, who, for weal of his soul and that of his father and mother, bequeathed to the monks of St. Vincent that whatever Radulfus Boissel had in the parish of St. Lenogisi. But this was done in the presence of these men whose names were recorded in the new castle: Sergius the chaplain, Pagani de Medavi, Herbert de Oseius, Gerbert the praetor, and Herve Sti Lenogisili. Dated ca. 1115.

William’s brother, Roger founded the priory of Lancaster, for the salvation of “Rogeri Seroberie patris sui matrisque sue Mabilie cometisse”. The Church of St. Mary at Lancaster and certain lands there were given by Earl Roger, in 1094, to the Abbey of St. Martin de Sagio or Sees, in Normandy; whereupon a Prior and five Benedictine Monks were placed here; who, with three priests, two clerks, and servants, made up a small Monastery, subordinate to that foreign House, which was endowed with the yearly revenue of about 801. sterling.

Let it be known to all present and in the future, that Roger count of Pictaven – the mistaken appelation enshrined – for the weal of his soul and also for the weal of his father Roger Seroberia, and his mother the countess Mabilia, as well as for his brothers and for all his friends, gave to God and to Saint Martin the church of Saint Mary of Lanecastro, with all belonging to it, and part of the land of that town from the old wall to Godefrid’s orchard, and as far as Prestgat, and near Lancastro the two mansions of Audecluna and Neutona, and everything belonging to them, also as far as Freibrok, with the customs which he had with Amfrid de Monte Gomeri, and whatever he holds of the aforesaid earldom, and the church of Hessenn with a third part of the whole town, and the church of Cotegrave, and the church of Cropil, and the church of Wikelay, and the church of Crofton, and half of the church of Aicleton. and the church of Kidewelle, and the church of Preston, with the tithe of the lordship and fishery, and two bovates of land, and all the tithes of the whole parish. He also gave Great Dernesia to Pultona, and everything belonging to it, and the church with one car. of land, and with all other appurtenance. (6).

William was the overlord of the Bussel family of Penworthen. (7). It is almost certain that the first recorded there, Warin Bussel, was of the same family as Ralph Boissel, recorded in Cart. de l’abbaye de Saint-Vincent du Mans, aforesaid. Warin Bussel had issue, among whom, (1) Albert Bussel, whose son, Hugo Bussel, had his lands in Penwortham, on nonpayment of a fine, wereseized by the King and delivered to Roger de Lacy (ibid.). (2) A daughter married to Hamo Pincerna (ibid.); (3) a daughter married to Alan FitzSwein (ibid.). The Testa de Nevill includes an inquisition concerning Lancaster dated 1212 which records that “Ricardus Bussel” granted land “in Gunnolvesmores” to “Alano filio Swani cum sorore sua”. (8).

“With respect to the foundation of the (Pontefract) Castle, Hollingshed (temp. Henry VIII) affirms that “an earthern fortification existert here anterior to the conquest, and that William, at the time he dispossessed the Saxons of their strongholds, wrested the one on which the Castle now stands from Ailric, a Saxon thane, and granted Tateshall to Hyldebert de Lasceio, together with so many estates in the county of York. Ailric however still retained a considerable tract as tenant, and the names of Ailric, his son Swain, (Swain FitzAilric) and his grandson, Adam FitzSwain, are constantly occurring in deeds of the eleventh and twelfth centuries. (9).

In 1085, Domesday Book sets forth that, “In Tateshall there are sixteen carucates of arable land without tax, where there can be nine ploughs. This Manor the King used to hold. Now Ilbert has there 4 carucates and 60 lesser burgesses, and 16 cotters, and 16 villains, and 8 bordmen, having 18 ploughs. Tateshall included what we now call Pontefract, Monkhill, Tanshelf, East Hardwick, and perhaps Carleton. In Tateshall was the Church, in Tateshall were three mills, in Tateshall were the alms lands, no trace of either of which exists in the present township of Tanshelf. The disproportion of value of Tateshall was excessive. Compare its value (£20) with those of Elmsall (£3), the two Kellingtons (40s), Roal and Eggborough (60s), Beal (60s), Knottingley (£4), Ferrybridge (50s). Wheldale and Frystone (£4), Houghton (100s), Hessle (5s), Ackworth (£4), Darrington (£8), Stapleton (£4), Womersley (£6), Smeaton (£6), Kirk Smeaton (£4), Thorp Audlin (£4), Badsworth, Upton and Rogerthorp (£3), Stubbs (40s), &c., and it will be evident that in the peaceful tine of the Confessor, the manor of Tateshall was worth the united values of three, four, six, ten or even twenty neighbouring manors, (ibid.).

LACY

A not improbable conjecture:
1.
1.1. Roger de Montgommery, named in a grant to the abbey of Jumiéges, witnessed by “Hugonis filii ejus”.* (10).
1.1.1. Roger de Montgomery, m. Mabel, dau. of William de Bellême*.
1.1.1.1. Robert de Montgommery “de Bellême”, m. Agnes de Ponthieu, dau. of Guy Comte de Ponthieu.
1.1.1.1.1. William “Talvas” de Ponthieu, overlord of Ralph Boissel, recorded in Cart. de l’abbaye de Saint-Vincent du Mans.

1.2. *Hugh Montgomery
1.2.1. Ilbert de Lacy, “occurs in the survey as mesne-tenant of many of the manors in Lincolnshire, of Odo, bishop of Bayeux, probably already the superior lord of the fief of Lassi, in whose contingent at Hastings he might therefore have fought, with his brother Walter, as vassals of the see. It is probable, though as yet no circumstance has come to light which affords sufficient proof of the absolute identity of the persons, that Ilbert and Hawise were the owners of Bois l’Evêque, not far from Darnetal, near Rouen, the capital city of Normandy, and that an Emma de Lacy, who was a nun at St. Amand, of Rouen, in the year 1069 (and had given to that Abbey twenty-two acres of land in Bois and Mount Maimart, which the Abbess sold to a Monk of La Trinité du Mont) was Ilbert’s sister“. (11).
1.2.1.1. Enguarrand de Lacy. “Later on, in 1080, an Enguerrard, son of Hilbert (probably Ilbert de Lacy – as there was at the time no other Ilbert who would have been spoken of by his Baptismal name alone – gave to the same Trinité du Mont two-thirds of the tithes of Bois l’Evêque; and when we have mentioned that this Enguerrard was apparently a great person, as his signature precedes that of the Count of Morton, and that he was Governor of Caen, but expelled by the townspeople just before the battle of Tinchebrai, in 1106, we have mentioned all that is known of those relatives, or suspected relatives, of Ilbert de Lacy, who did not succeed in gaining a settlement in England, but remained in their native Normandy” (ibid.).

Hilbert de Lacy, received extensive lands from William the Conqueror. “Hilbertus de Lacy”. Hilbertus de Laceio. “Be it known unto all Christians as well living as future, that I Hilbert de Laci together with Hadrude* my wife do give the mansion of Tuisuicz unto the Holy Trinity of Mont Rouen; the land to wit, with water and meadows and woods and all things to the same mansion belonging, for my soul and [the soul] of my lord king William, and the souls of my parents and friends, as also of my wife and of my son Hugh, for that also that he my son above-named resteth in that place; and the tithe of Freteval”. Freteval, the tithe of which is granted, was probably the small town of that name in France, situated in La Beauce, upon the river Loir. (12).

Beauce is situated 1 mile from Lessay. It is very probable that the ancestor of Ilbert de Lacy was a military associate of William de Belleme, and in some way of familial connection, as in 1005, William a made several grants to local churches including the church of Beauce, which his father had founded. (13). It was an almost invariable medieval requirement that those making a donation to a religious foundation were in some way related to the founder. *Haduidis/Hawuidis probably a latinisation of Hawise.

LACIACUS. LACEIUM ; LASSAYUM; LASSEIUM. – LASSAI. “Petite ville et paroisse de l’archidiaconé de Passais, chef-lieu d’un doyenné, sur la rive droite du ruisseau de Chastenai, dans le pays des Diablintes. L’église paroissiale, située au hameau de S.-Fraimbault, distant d’un kilomètre de la ville, fut établie, suivant la tradition, par l’anachorète S. Fraimbault, dans le VI° siècle. La chapelle de Lassai en était la succursale”. 14. “Le canton de Passais, arrondissement de Domfront. On sait que Richard Ier, troisième duc de Normandie, donna à Yves de Creil, comte de Bellême et d’Alençon, ou à son fils Guillaume, une partie du Passais, à charge de défendre cette frontière de la Normandie contre les incursions des Manceaux et des Bretons. Guillaume de Bellême fit bâtir, vers 1020, le château de Domfront, dont subsistent encore quelques vestiges”. (15).

That is, was Ilbert de Lacy a cousin of Roger de Montgomery, son-in-law of William de Bellême, enabling Ilbert to donate to William de Bellême’s religious foundation in a familial capacity? Impossible to say, but not improbable, for it at least makes sense, and invites us to think (outside of the suffocating box of repetition).

copyright m stanhope 2023

References:

1. Orderic Vitalis (Prévost), vol. iii, Liber viii, v, p. 300.
2. Bosworth, Dict. of the Anglo-Saxon Language, p. 52, 1838.
3. William de Jumièges Historiæ (Duchesne, 1619), Liber vii, xiii, p. 274.
4. Marmoutier-Perche, 13, p. 23.
5. Round (1899), p. 346.
6. Dugdale, 7, p. 997, 1846.
7. William Adam Hulton, Documents Relating to the Priory of Penwortham, 1853.
8. Testa de Nevill, pt. I, p. 210.
9. A Few Sketches of Pontefract Topography, p. 6, 1873.
10 William de Jumiéges, op. cit. bk. I., ch. lxxij. and lxxiij.
11. Richard H. H. Holmes, Pontefract: Its Name, Its Lords, and Its Castle, p. 59, 1878.
12. The Archaeological Journal, p. 250, 1857.
13. Geoffrey H. White, ‘The First House of Bellême’, Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, Fourth Series, vol. 22, p. 76, 1940.
14. Thomas Cauvin, Institut des provinces de France: Geographie ancienne, vols. 1-2, p. 361, 1845.
15. Léon de La Sicotière, Le département de l’Orne, p. 118, 1845.

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2 Responses to PONTHIEU NOT PICTAVENSIS – A POSSIBLE CONTEXT FOR ILBERT DE LACY

  1. Thank you Michael for focusing on this topic. Happy New Year! As you point out, we definitely find signals of kinship relating Earl Roger with Ilbert de Lacy. Among Ilbert’s vassals in Yorkshire we find the neighbors and likely kinsmen (brothers?) William Pictavensis and Roger Pictavensis, both benefactors of Ilbert de Lacy’s foundation of St. Clement’s Chapel at Pontefract Castle. Earl Roger was also called Pictavensis and is named this way in various folios of Domesday. Lancaster Priory was founded by “Rogerus comes Pictavensis,” which I believe should be translated as Earl Roger Pictavensis. Earl Roger was not the “count of Ponthieu.“ Neither was he the “count of Poitou” as antiquaries sometimes mistakenly assert. Roger’s wife was an heiress in the adjacent county of La Marche. At the foundation of Lancaster Priory, the title Count of Poitou belonged to GUILLAUME IX Duke of Aquitaine aka GUILLAUME VII Comte de Poitou.

    From the pancarte charter of Preaux, we find that William Pictavensis aka “of Poitiers” of Les Preaux is the son of Anschetil de Tourville. Anschetil was a son of Theroulde aka Turulf de Tourville and his patrimony included lands in Les Preaux. Orderic tell us that William Pictavensis was so called due to his education in Poitiers. With his scholastic training, William becomes a clerk of William’s chantry followed by elevation to archdeacon of Lisieux. Davis and Chibnall suggest his place of education was likely Saint-Hilaire-le-Grand.

    Roger’s brother Philippe de Montgommery was a royal clerk and called “Grammaticus.” This is another reason to suspect kinship with Ilbert de Lacy and the family de Tourville, since ducal (Normandy) and royal clerical offices were strictly hereditary among branches of the Tourville family. There are many reasons for suspecting that Ilbert de Lacy is from a branch of the Tourville family. Ilbert is possibly among the sons of Hugh Grammaticus, archdeacon of Rouen, perhaps identical with the (ducal) clerk filius Turulfi. Hugh’s brother Anschetil Grammaticus de Tourville is the above-mentioned father of William Pictavensis aka of Poitiers.

    I have proposed this Hugh Grammaticus is also the father of Ralph Grammaticus I. For this reason, Ilbert de Lacy II calls Ralph Grammaticus II aka le Rous “frater meus.” Ralph Grammaticus I was among the most prominent tenants of Ilbert de Lacy I, and these men held certain lands in equally divided portions [foundation charter of St Clement’s], supporting the hypothesis they are brothers.

    But this leaves open the question of probable kinship between Earl Roger Pictavensis and men such as Roger de Busli, Albert de Gressley, Ilbert de Lacy I and Ralph Grammaticus I. I suspect we will find the Montgommery family among the descendants of Turquetil de Tourville, which family members focus on education in expectation of service as hereditary royal clerks. Earl Roger himself, although not a Grammaticus (qualified as a teacher) like his brother Phillip, was likely called Pictavensis due to his education in Poitiers, just like his kinsman William Pictavensis.

    Regards,
    Michael Harris

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Earl Roger and Grimoult’s Barony

    An important connected topic concerns the kinship that Earl Roger, Ilbert de Lacy and Ralph Grammaticus each share with William de Albini I. Some works in progress will show that William is undoubtedly a near kinsman of the families who succeed Turquetil de Tourville and his sons Theroulde de Tourville and Norman de Hericourt in the Danelaw. Among many examples, let’s consider leading families within the Parish of Thurlaston, anciently called Turchitelestone or “Turquetil’s Town (tonn),” named for Turquetil de Tourville. John Hulme is the author of “History of Thurlaston, Leicestershire, including Normanton Turville…” Hulme calls out the names of the early prominent families in the parish, including:
    1. Champaine, Champeyne or Campania
    2. Tourvile, Tourvill, Turvile or Turville
    3. Rowe, Roe, Row or Rooe
    4. Bouge, Boug, Bug or Bugge

    These families are all kinsmen, which names derive from the family branches de Campigny, de Tourville, le Rous and de Bougy. We recognize the first three names as the descendants of Theroulde de Tourville and Campigny. The fourth name clearly belongs to William de Albini and his heirs. “Before 1047, William d’Aubigny had married Grimoult’s sister and gained possession of Bougy and Danvou. These were held by his descendants from the bishop of Bayeux.” [PhD Thesis, Winning the West: The Creation of Lower Normandy, c. 889–c. 1087, Kerrith Davies]

    As “Rogerus comes Salosberiensis,” Earl Roger witnessed a charter of King William I dated 24 Dec 1074 giving estates that “had once been held by Grimoult and he had served Bayeux cathedral for it. But now, because he has been a traitor and he and his heirs have justly lost land on account of disloyalty and conspiracies against William, William grants it to Bayeux cathedral to be held peacefully in demesne by bishop Odo and his successors.”
    https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/03770076

    This charter mentions the lands of Lassy, Bussy and of Erneis Taisson as being within the bounds of Grimoult’s barony. Hence we find that William de Albini, Ilbert de Lacy, Robert de Bucy, and Erneis Taisson were each the tenants of Bishop Odo within Grimoult’s barony. Erneis Taisson is hypothetically a near kinsman and Gilbert Tison and Erneis de Buron (brothers?), whose lands are forfeited to Neil de Albini.

    Prior research indicates that Ilbert de Lacy is a near relation of William de Albini I and Roger de Albini. Antiquaries suggest Roger is William’s son, but Roger may have instead been William’s brother. The sons of Roger de Albini are among the tenants of Ilbert de Lacy, whose lands in Lancashire were previously held by Earl Roger. Neil de Albini is an overlord of Ralph Grammaticus II aka le Rous, son of the first Ralph Grammaticus. Neil de Albini prominently appears in the history of the Priory of Nostell founded by Ralph le Rous. We also find Ralph Grammaticus I as a tenant of Erneis de Buron and Ralph’s son is a successor where Erneis was tenant.

    Earl Rogers role as a witness to the charter concerning the barony of Grimoult is quite interesting. This is simply one among numerous signs of kinship connecting Earl Roger, William de Albini, Ilbert de Lacy, Ralph Grammaticus I, Robert de Bucy, Erneis Taisson, Erneis de Buron, and Gilbert Tison. There might be more happening in Grimoult’s barony pertaining to the descendants of Turquetil de Tourville than William de Albini marrying Grimoult’s sister. We should be on the lookout for additional clues in this regard. We should also be on the lookout for clues as to which brother of Anschetil de Tourville is William de Albini’s father.

    Cheers,
    Michael Harris

    Liked by 1 person

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